3/24/2006
Bataireacht Sail-Éílle
Apologies to all for allowing myself to get distracted, but I need to, as Barney Fife would say, "nip this in the bud!"
Gerard v seems to have returned, and he seems to be in rare form. I'll let him have the floor, so to speak, for the nonce:
OK, gerard, you've had your say -- now a question. Ready? If, as you say, using "open", "negotiable", or "will take market value" is a bad idea, then what is the good idea?
Your answer? We'll wait...
I read that entire comment over several times and not once did I see anything that may have helped someone, or given them an answer they may have been seeking. What I did see was an attack on something I learned in my workshop (led by an instructor with over 25 years of Human Resource Development, by the way) that may -- just may -- have led to that one break that might have gotten me the job that would pull me out of this mess. Now, I did the civic-minded thing and passed the info along; based on the comments I got as a result, the information may have helped a few of you. But gerard comes along and declares the whole thing flawed, yet he offers no alternative plan; no reason why using "open", etc. might work, even under limited circumstances; no encouragement whatsoever.
I put it to the audience that one of the reasons many homeless/poor/uneducated cannot get ahead is due to the gale forces of arrogance and bombast hurled by such would-be advice givers as gerard. For every piece of hardscrabbled information and encouragement we get, there is always someone like gerard ready to use the shillelagh of their "superior wisdom" to assault our hopes and dreams and beat our spirits into submission.
Just imagine if Jesus Christ, Mohandas Gandhi, or Martin Luther King had spoken to people in that fashion; simply giving their listeners' spirits a good drubbing instead of offering some sort of hope that things can and would get better. using their great intellects to tear hope down instead of building it up? The socioeconomic anemia that permeates our culture now would've been increased a thousandfold.
So, gerard, perhaps you can actually help someone by breaking down their conscience and their spirit. I don't know. All I can say is buona fortuna to you, and hope that someone, somewhere, regards you as the towering figure you seem to believe you are so you can continue feeling better about yourself. You once posted on your own blog that you'd worn out your welcome here. I invited you back, not wanting to suppress opposing views, but attacks like these are not helping anyone, and are in fact counterproductive.
Perhaps your own blog is a better place to espouse your views. I'd rather build hope up than tear it down.
Gerard v seems to have returned, and he seems to be in rare form. I'll let him have the floor, so to speak, for the nonce:
Ahhhh, I'm back! I've was sick as a dog last week, hence my absence (I'm a
little bi-tch when I get sick... And yes, I know I'm setting myself up for a
joke here!)
Now, as for this "What to write in the Salary Requirements"
field on a Job Application form... NEVER, and I mean NEVER, write in
"Negotiable", "Open" or "Will Take Market Value" when asked what your salary
requirements are. NEVER!
First, let me tackle the "on the surface" flaw
in this approach...
1) Will Take Market Value - Really? OK, what's MV?
$40,000? Well, since I have 4 other possible candidates that are only asking for
35K I can filter this guy out. Or, maybe if he's willing to work for MV than
maybe he's willing to work for peanuts...
2) Open - Good, because I'm
going to low-ball this guy if he's really good so I can get more for less, and
if he's not so good then it doesn't really matter how Open he really
is.
3) Negotiable - That's great! We were willing to offer up to $35,000
a year, but since he's willing to negotiate even LOWER than that...
Think
you can put a positive spin on these three examples? If anybody feels the urge
to try, then do so... Just understand that if you reply with anything that you
can think of that "proves" that you would come out a winner in this situation it
will defy logic, common sense and intelligence. You'll also be the same person
that thinks I'm arrogant! Which leads me to the second flaw in this
methodology...
99% of those looking for a job think and feel that they
NEED the job they are interviewing for while 99% of interviewers think and feel
that you are NOT the right person to fill that position. So, as the potential
candidate you start off at a disadvantage. The company holds ALL of the cards
and you're just lucky to be watching the game from a distance. The interviewer
has ALL of the facts, knowledge and experience of the company, position,
culture, needs, budget, etc. You know that you need this job! Yeah, you might
have researched the company, but that and a dime will get you a cup of coffee.
So how does one go about screwing themselves even further? Well, not only do
they come across as desperate for a job but now they'll work for LESS than we
were willing to pay!
OK, gerard, you've had your say -- now a question. Ready? If, as you say, using "open", "negotiable", or "will take market value" is a bad idea, then what is the good idea?
Your answer? We'll wait...
I read that entire comment over several times and not once did I see anything that may have helped someone, or given them an answer they may have been seeking. What I did see was an attack on something I learned in my workshop (led by an instructor with over 25 years of Human Resource Development, by the way) that may -- just may -- have led to that one break that might have gotten me the job that would pull me out of this mess. Now, I did the civic-minded thing and passed the info along; based on the comments I got as a result, the information may have helped a few of you. But gerard comes along and declares the whole thing flawed, yet he offers no alternative plan; no reason why using "open", etc. might work, even under limited circumstances; no encouragement whatsoever.
I put it to the audience that one of the reasons many homeless/poor/uneducated cannot get ahead is due to the gale forces of arrogance and bombast hurled by such would-be advice givers as gerard. For every piece of hardscrabbled information and encouragement we get, there is always someone like gerard ready to use the shillelagh of their "superior wisdom" to assault our hopes and dreams and beat our spirits into submission.
Just imagine if Jesus Christ, Mohandas Gandhi, or Martin Luther King had spoken to people in that fashion; simply giving their listeners' spirits a good drubbing instead of offering some sort of hope that things can and would get better. using their great intellects to tear hope down instead of building it up? The socioeconomic anemia that permeates our culture now would've been increased a thousandfold.
So, gerard, perhaps you can actually help someone by breaking down their conscience and their spirit. I don't know. All I can say is buona fortuna to you, and hope that someone, somewhere, regards you as the towering figure you seem to believe you are so you can continue feeling better about yourself. You once posted on your own blog that you'd worn out your welcome here. I invited you back, not wanting to suppress opposing views, but attacks like these are not helping anyone, and are in fact counterproductive.
Perhaps your own blog is a better place to espouse your views. I'd rather build hope up than tear it down.
# posted by Cybermancer @ 1:38 PM 
Comments:
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My hat is off to you cybermancer. It takes a lot of courage to tell someone that they are, in the end, not helping. I myself had stopped commenting here for fear of verbal attack from gerard v, and I now see that I wasn't the only one who was not finding his 'infinate wisdom' helpful. So good on ya, take only the advice that works, listen to advice that helps, and surround yourself with people who give you strength and hope.
;)
P.S. I really hope that job lead pans out, and you can get back onto you feet. I'll be crossing my fingers for you.
;)
P.S. I really hope that job lead pans out, and you can get back onto you feet. I'll be crossing my fingers for you.
"Though this be madness, yet there is method in it" - William Shakespeare
"...I'm the man they love to hate; the J.R. Ewing of Seattle..." - Sir Mix-A-Lot, from the song Posse On Broadway
-----------------------------------
First things first... I know it's an obscure reference, but "Posse On Broadway" is Sir Mix-A-Lot's BEST Rap song by FAR! :)
Now, let's get to the main issue here... I've answered your lone question in this post on my own blog, out of respect to you and your request; I just hope that you keep up your end of the bargin and give me the respect to read it. I thank you now for reading it and have given you the credit you deserve for all to see on my own blog as well.
I'll end this comment with this... Have you ever wondered what MY BEAST is?
Loneliness
When I told you that my intelligence is ranked in the 94th Percentile of the American Population, I wasn't lying. Do you know how badly that I wish that I was lying? Try walking a mile in my shoes; I've already walked in your shoes and know what your going through... You want an employer to give you a chance when you need one the most, yet you can't find it in your heart to give me the same chance when I need it most? Out of 300 million people in the United States, there are only 18 Million of them who are equal to or superior to my intelligence. Walk a mile in my shoes and see if you can find 1 of those 18 million people out of the remaining 282 Million. In other words, only 6% of the population has something in common with me. You've got 94% of the population that has something in common with you... For every 100 commenters, you'd have 94 of them like "20-Questions". commenting in your defense... Where's my 6? Seems like I'm all alone...
Look... There is NO question in which you could ask me that I will not answer truthfully and honestly... Can you do the same? I've BEGGED people to ask me anything they wish to know and I've been ridiculed instead. Help me to understand what I'm doing wrong in trying to share my gift to others and I'll use that to help you claim what you seek in return.
http://gameprix.blogspot.com/
"...I'm the man they love to hate; the J.R. Ewing of Seattle..." - Sir Mix-A-Lot, from the song Posse On Broadway
-----------------------------------
First things first... I know it's an obscure reference, but "Posse On Broadway" is Sir Mix-A-Lot's BEST Rap song by FAR! :)
Now, let's get to the main issue here... I've answered your lone question in this post on my own blog, out of respect to you and your request; I just hope that you keep up your end of the bargin and give me the respect to read it. I thank you now for reading it and have given you the credit you deserve for all to see on my own blog as well.
I'll end this comment with this... Have you ever wondered what MY BEAST is?
Loneliness
When I told you that my intelligence is ranked in the 94th Percentile of the American Population, I wasn't lying. Do you know how badly that I wish that I was lying? Try walking a mile in my shoes; I've already walked in your shoes and know what your going through... You want an employer to give you a chance when you need one the most, yet you can't find it in your heart to give me the same chance when I need it most? Out of 300 million people in the United States, there are only 18 Million of them who are equal to or superior to my intelligence. Walk a mile in my shoes and see if you can find 1 of those 18 million people out of the remaining 282 Million. In other words, only 6% of the population has something in common with me. You've got 94% of the population that has something in common with you... For every 100 commenters, you'd have 94 of them like "20-Questions". commenting in your defense... Where's my 6? Seems like I'm all alone...
Look... There is NO question in which you could ask me that I will not answer truthfully and honestly... Can you do the same? I've BEGGED people to ask me anything they wish to know and I've been ridiculed instead. Help me to understand what I'm doing wrong in trying to share my gift to others and I'll use that to help you claim what you seek in return.
http://gameprix.blogspot.com/
By the way Cybermancer... You don't consider yourself a hypocrite, do you? Do you make it a point to do what you say and apologize if you make a mistake? Just curious, because the funny thing is, I couldn't find... Well, how did YOU put it again?...
"I read that entire comment over several times and not once did I see anything that may have helped someone, or given them an answer they may have been seeking. What I did see was an attack on something I learned..."
Nah, I must have misread it or something, because stupid me, I still can't find the section of your post where you pause your attacks on me just long enough to point out where I might have been right. I would appreciate it if you could point it out to me so I don't feel like the only idiot who relies on those stupid facts and stuff.
So, you've demanded of me a response to your question and I've complied with your wishes. I know you've got an issue of sorts with my favorite word (reciprocate), but would you consider doing the same for me?
Give a man a fish and he can eat for a day... Teach a man to fish and he can eat for a lifetime. Give Cybermancer a number to put in the requested salary field and he can be satisfied with one particular application... Teach Cybermancer how to fill out any job application that sticks out from the rest of the pack and he can work for a lifetime...
If you agree to respond to me, then my question for you is
"Do you want the answer (a fish) or do you want a solution (how to fish)?"
Oh, and I'd hate to break this to you, but Jesus Christ, Mohandas Gandhi, or Martin Luther King wouldn't have spoken to people in your fashion to me either...
"I read that entire comment over several times and not once did I see anything that may have helped someone, or given them an answer they may have been seeking. What I did see was an attack on something I learned..."
Nah, I must have misread it or something, because stupid me, I still can't find the section of your post where you pause your attacks on me just long enough to point out where I might have been right. I would appreciate it if you could point it out to me so I don't feel like the only idiot who relies on those stupid facts and stuff.
So, you've demanded of me a response to your question and I've complied with your wishes. I know you've got an issue of sorts with my favorite word (reciprocate), but would you consider doing the same for me?
Give a man a fish and he can eat for a day... Teach a man to fish and he can eat for a lifetime. Give Cybermancer a number to put in the requested salary field and he can be satisfied with one particular application... Teach Cybermancer how to fill out any job application that sticks out from the rest of the pack and he can work for a lifetime...
If you agree to respond to me, then my question for you is
"Do you want the answer (a fish) or do you want a solution (how to fish)?"
Oh, and I'd hate to break this to you, but Jesus Christ, Mohandas Gandhi, or Martin Luther King wouldn't have spoken to people in your fashion to me either...
WOW... You know something... You can bash me and ridicule me all you want and more, but to do something that is so sneaky, dirty and underhanded like you did crosses the line...
How CONVIENTENT of you to just happen to forget to mention in your rant that avolokitisvara said in an earlier post...
"I tried that "market value thing" for salary negotiations today at the job I had. The guy tried to low ball me, it was ok though. I knew I d hate the job as she was describing it to me."
Isn't that EXACTLY what I said would happen?!!? SHE PROVED MY THEORY TRUE!
You're right... you don't need my help... You're doing a great job of making me look foolish on your own. Thanks a lot.
How CONVIENTENT of you to just happen to forget to mention in your rant that avolokitisvara said in an earlier post...
"I tried that "market value thing" for salary negotiations today at the job I had. The guy tried to low ball me, it was ok though. I knew I d hate the job as she was describing it to me."
Isn't that EXACTLY what I said would happen?!!? SHE PROVED MY THEORY TRUE!
You're right... you don't need my help... You're doing a great job of making me look foolish on your own. Thanks a lot.
Listen, gerard, Mike, I had an interview on Tuesday(March 22nd) with the insurance company Phoenix American and another yesterday with Miami Lincoln Mercury. I KNOW the Phoenix gig didnt go well. I m not upset because as the HR director was telling me about the position I KNEW I didnt want that spot. Why? My own distaste for the cubicle environment. I do so declare, THAT REMINDS OF CHICKENS IN A COOP. And I dont mean one of them Grapes of Wrath 1930s chicken coops, I mean the chicken coop of Tyson or Perdue here and now. You know the shotgun barn with 1-2,000 hens sitting side by side being force fed until slaughter day.
But what I really want to know is in that box on the application when they ask 'salary desired' how do you respond to it? I at the point where I told the guy at Phoenix that if you we re talking salary then you re in a position to offer me the job(I was courteous but knew I didnt want that position so I figured what do I have to lose by being overly forward?).
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But what I really want to know is in that box on the application when they ask 'salary desired' how do you respond to it? I at the point where I told the guy at Phoenix that if you we re talking salary then you re in a position to offer me the job(I was courteous but knew I didnt want that position so I figured what do I have to lose by being overly forward?).
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